tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7584967099548529614.post8852586638364146636..comments2023-07-27T02:30:16.617-05:00Comments on Social Class & Quakers: Welcome and MinistryJeannehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00905850036743973387noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7584967099548529614.post-19115515433588386722011-08-08T13:22:59.211-05:002011-08-08T13:22:59.211-05:00I remember arguing with God at Pendle Hill about n...I remember arguing with God at Pendle Hill about not wanting to join my meeting, because although I felt welcome and right with God in the presence of the meetinghouse, I did not feel community with those who gathered. A voice quite sternly spoke to me and said, "I am meeting you where you are AT."<br /><br />Well, who could argue with that?<br /><br />I still remember one of the first questions I was asked was what college had I attended? As much as that will forever annoy me, I trusted God and joined anyway. Thank you for speaking to my condition!Suzannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13934636957642612985noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7584967099548529614.post-75068832564706615832011-03-13T16:45:11.572-05:002011-03-13T16:45:11.572-05:00What is it about (Liberal?) Quaker culture,..., th...<b>What is it about (Liberal?) Quaker culture,..., that teaches so many of us to calm the troubled waters, rather than to wade in them?</b><br /><br />This really speaks to the point I am moving towards in my spiritual journey. I work in a poor rural community, so going to meeting can cause me some culture shock...they are so "polite".<br /><br />In addition, with health reforms in the UK, as a clinical person with management responsibility I have no choice but to wade into troubled waters, and I am realising this experience has broadened my understanding of the peace testimony. Conflict does not go away by being nice.<br /><br />If we are going to speak truth to power, we need to think about the power of culture/class as something that needs to be spoken of rather than politely ignored.Helenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04525075475120503055noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7584967099548529614.post-65345329839829806762011-03-04T13:57:55.600-06:002011-03-04T13:57:55.600-06:00I also like Rosemary's distinction. It's a...I also like Rosemary's distinction. It's about intention and impact. I don't think any Quakers ever intend to be classist. But we do a much better job at reflecting the upper middle class society at large than we think we do.Jeannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00905850036743973387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7584967099548529614.post-57006937292877140622011-03-04T10:52:45.071-06:002011-03-04T10:52:45.071-06:00I also like Rosemary's distinction between bei...I also like Rosemary's distinction between being welcome and feeling welcome.<br /><br />I just ended up touching on something like this in a post on my own blog. I was writing about a book but ended up commenting that I think Quakers engage in a kind of careless socializaiton of our young people into certain ideas. In my meeting, for instance, our actions show, for instance, that we think it's important to go to college and that getting into college is worth celebrating publicly (during joys and sorrows). The little stir that runs through the room when a parent announces that a child has been admitted to a "name" school like Brown makes it very clear that we think "name" schools are better than other schools (there are happy nods when a kid gets into a state college; on the rare occasions one gets into the Ivy League, there are vocalizations. Do we think our kids don't notice this?)<br /><br />In addition, we often announce professional awards, or if someone gets written up in the paper (and then it gets posted on the bulletin board). People in our meeting might not even know, for instance, that other members have been deeply involved in a particular ministry; I've never seen anyone say something like, 'we're celebrating 10 years of so-and-so's involvement in Couple Enrichment," for instance.<br /><br />I'd like to see us think more critically about these values and the ways we're transmitting them. Do we really value our children who get into "name" schools more than the ones who attend state schools? Do we really value our members who achieve professional prominence more than our members who are farmers, or ministers within the Quaker tradition? If not, then do our behaviors really reflect our values? Are there things we should do to ensure that they do?Suhttp://tapeflags.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7584967099548529614.post-26790407577591636292011-03-03T21:37:56.846-06:002011-03-03T21:37:56.846-06:00Liz said:
"Being willing to wrestle with thi...Liz said:<br /><br />"Being willing to wrestle with things that make me uncomfortable in order to understand a deeper Truth opens a way to participating in justice, social change, and Gospel Order that I could not see or know before."<br /><br />(Hi Liz!) That sounds to me like the heart of faithfulness, not something separate from it. It sounds like the process of humbly working together with God so that our ignorance and greed and fear be transformed into something more Christlike. It sounds like acting out of a Love that trumps ego, security and social standing. <br /><br />Because we're human, the quality of our ministry can be affected by how far along we are in this larger journey of faithfulness. <br /><br />I know I could be more fruitful if I were farther along in the journey, and that progressing in this takes hard work. I'm not so far along. But the words Jeanne wrote are sitting heavily in my heart, and I see them as an opportunity for some small measure of transformation.Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17368195424217500538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7584967099548529614.post-36569685790876817852011-03-01T21:55:53.305-06:002011-03-01T21:55:53.305-06:00Being welcome and feeling welcome are two differen...Being welcome and feeling welcome are two different things. I'm glad Rosemary made the distinction. I often don't feel welcome at meeting for worship although I am assured that I am, in fact, welcomed. I'm always afraid someone will think I'm a fraud or that I don't really belong among Friends. I only began to feel more welcome when someone went out of her way to spend time with me as a person outside of meeting. She friended me on facebook and came to visit me at my house. She took long walks with me and laughed with me. She listened to my concerns and to my feelings of being an outsider. She also allowed herself to be vulnerable in my presence. I was amazed at how much I had not understood about the people in my meeting and how much I had misunderstood about whether or not I belonged. I'm still working on my feelings of being "different" in my meeting and with my fears that they all have more than I do (money, wisdom, patience, knowledge, experience), but what a difference she made for me by treating me as a friend, and not just as a Friend.Hysteryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02044678910937934731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7584967099548529614.post-13348312734043363842011-03-01T08:03:26.584-06:002011-03-01T08:03:26.584-06:00Thanks so much for writing, Jeanne, and all the co...Thanks so much for writing, Jeanne, and all the commenters as well. I have nothing to add, but I feel relief that these things are being talked about and brought to light and wanted to share my appreciation of you all. Good news to the poor.Alice Y.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16267449289432878102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7584967099548529614.post-48867567559817627952011-02-28T23:47:07.805-06:002011-02-28T23:47:07.805-06:00I'm so thankful Friends are addressing this is...I'm so thankful Friends are addressing this issue. Lack of diversity is a growing concern with me. <br /><br />Vocal ministry is always a delicate negotiation. Part of that negotiation involves listeners. How earnestly do we seek to discern the Messenger behind the words? How do we sit with messages that do not speak to us? <br /><br />The Friend offering ministry, too, needs to be aware of those to whom he/she speaks. One of my favorite prayers during meeting for worship is, "Lord, spare me pious thoughts." Sharing such thoughts simply spreads the problem.<br /><br />When I speak in Meeting for worship I try to remember the often illiterate desert fathers, who left very simple but profound words for us to ponder.Chris Nugenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13595074638519056842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7584967099548529614.post-74062521662139881352011-02-28T21:44:06.152-06:002011-02-28T21:44:06.152-06:00This blog post doesn't address all the issues ...This blog post doesn't address all the issues you raise here, but it's all I can manage for tonight. http://www.eileenflanagan.com/blog/2011/2/28/me-and-my-middle-class-taxes.htmlEileen Flanaganhttp://www.eileenflanagan.com/blognoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7584967099548529614.post-47272631740495557962011-02-28T20:42:08.265-06:002011-02-28T20:42:08.265-06:00When I visited women at the jail, I once invited a...When I visited women at the jail, I once invited a prisoner to attend our meeting when she was released. She asked me, "Would I be welcome at your meeting?" I told her I knew she would be welcome, but I couldn't say that she would feel welcome. I knew it in my heart, for all the reasons you're describing, Jeanne. She would not have felt welcome. She would not have felt that she could "fit in."<br />RosemaryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7584967099548529614.post-46000111801701326292011-02-28T18:29:26.987-06:002011-02-28T18:29:26.987-06:00Martin- I'm not clear what a "direct spir...Martin- I'm not clear what a "direct spiritual opening" is and how it differs from "lessons from my life" (or at least where we would draw the line, as they'd seem to be on a continuum) - does it have to include Jesus, or Christian imagery?efhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01439718927967964939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7584967099548529614.post-83197156494323012272011-02-28T17:13:16.234-06:002011-02-28T17:13:16.234-06:00As I was considering this post and the comments, a...As I was considering this post and the comments, and as I began to sort through what wasn't sitting well with me, it seems that Jeanne has put her finger on it.<br /><br />Here is how I'd phrase the issue:<br /><br />What is it about (Liberal?) Quaker culture, and White middle class America, that teaches so many of us to <b><i>calm</i></b> the troubled waters, rather than to wade in them?<br /><br />Like Cat, and until fairly recently, my reaction would be to trust that we are all striving to be faithful, and leave it at that.<br /><br />But I am learning that often times, being faithful isn't enough. I used to think it was, but now, in the context of oppression based on skin color, on sexual orientation, and on social class, I am learning that that isn't enough. <br /><br />Being willing to wrestle with things that make me uncomfortable in order to understand a deeper Truth opens a way to participating in justice, social change, and Gospel Order that I could not see or know before.<br /><br />Until very recently, it used to be enough, to ask the very thing that Cat has said: <br /><br /><i>I think the only question that matters to us around vocal ministry is, "Are we being faithful?"</i><br /><br />But as I work to peel away the blinders I've had around racism, classism, heterosexism, and xenophobia, that query must now be put into a wider social context--<b><i>especially</i></b> when one among us says Ouch.<br /><br />Not "Ouch that hurts me personally and encroaches on my entitlement as a person of privilege," but "Ouch that hurts because <i>it's part of an oppressive system, an oppressive -ism, that we are supposed to be working to change."</i><br /><br />I think that this post, and Cat's well-intentioned reply, is helping me see that I am learning to put the simple query, "Are we being faithful?" into the context of "...And how does the White middle-class Quaker structure that I have internalized answer that question for me?"<br /><br />Granted, there is a time when a cigar is just a cigar. But when a person who has been part of an historically oppressed group says, "There is something to look at here, for all of us," it may be that God is asking me (us) to see past the cigar, and past the smoke and mirrors that modern Quaker culture has blown in my face, to something larger...<br /><br />(Ugh, I have more that is stirred up but I'm having trouble getting to it. Time for me to sit some more and listen further....)<br /><br />Blessings,<br />Liz Opp, <a href="http://thegoodraisedup.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">The Good Raised Up</a>Liz Opphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09802348848085930901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7584967099548529614.post-92136283426928265122011-02-28T16:39:43.742-06:002011-02-28T16:39:43.742-06:00Cat, I would hope that if a Friend said to me that...Cat, I would hope that if a Friend said to me that my ministry reeked of white privilege and was hurtful, I would take some time to seriously and thoughtfully consider her words. I would hope to examine myself and the culture around me that has until this point supported and appreciated my ministry. And I would hope to figure out ways to encourage my whole meeting to grow into the community God intends us to be.<br /><br />I certainly hope I wouldn't respond by saying that things should stay the same and that God'll sort it all out.Jeannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00905850036743973387noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7584967099548529614.post-18165618294628979542011-02-28T15:51:18.170-06:002011-02-28T15:51:18.170-06:00Actually, I think the only question that matters t...Actually, I think the only question that matters to us around vocal ministry is, "Are we being faithful?" <br /><br />Are we responding fully and promptly to the leadings of Spirit, including the prompting to rise and speak, without editing or word-smithing, in the words given us by Spirit?<br /><br />If we are doing anything else, whether it is suppressing what is being given us to say or outrunning our guide, we are compromising our faithfulness... or, perhaps, learning it, and hopefully there will be some help available to show us how to be more faithful in future.<br /><br />I believe I have heard faithful ministry that is deeply rooted in the personal, and that I have heard faithful ministry that is rooted in Scripture. But I also believe it is not my place or anyone's to decide for God what form that content should take in advance.<br /><br />This is one reason why, as a non-Christian Friend, I weep when I hear of Christian Friends being told not to speak of Jesus or to mention the Bible in their vocal ministry; they are being counseled against faithfulness.<br /><br />Well, but isn't it always "dangerous" to speak from personal experience? After all, as Jeannie points out, aspects of our specific experience may not speak to or may even alienate some hearers.<br /><br />Of course it's dangerous. That's why we do it in covenanted communities, where we trust God to lead and one another to follow; where we trust that a message that does not speak to our condition may speak to another's, and allow it to pass us by without anger... and where, if there is a pattern of vocal ministry that is apparently not rooted in Spirit, some of the most capably compassionate and loving of Friends will find a way to speak to the Friend at fault in a way that will hopefully help them to discern better in future, while also nourishing and encouraging the growth of ministry wherever it is found.<br /><br />Censorship around the content of ministry, whether self-censorship or censorship of others, does not seem to me to be a helpful part of that process. Even if it is undertaken with the best of intentions--to protect a non-Christian Friend like myself, for instance, or a working class Friend like you, Jeanne.<br /><br />It <i>is</i> important that we are careful in discernment of ministry. Questions like, "Is this really meant to be spoken, and to be spoken here and now?" and "Is love at the root of what I am about to say?" belong in everyone's repertoire.<br /><br />I know many of us fall short, probably in every meeting.<br /><br />But while I agree with Martin that actual ministry is the answer, and that this will always involve "elucidating the gospel," I think it is important to recognize that the real gospel, the one that speaks directly to hearts and does good and not harm in the world, is the one that, were every Bible in the world destroyed tomorrow, will still go on being written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit.<br /><br />That gospel can speak through almost anything... and ministry offered without it, whether rooted in personal experience or in beloved passages of the Bible, will be sterile.Cat C-B (and/or Peter B)https://www.blogger.com/profile/10002916434676859262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7584967099548529614.post-3479295346922094052011-02-28T13:30:55.809-06:002011-02-28T13:30:55.809-06:00I second what martin said. This is why first-perso...I second what martin said. This is why first-person "sharing" as the main kind of "ministry" becomes a problem. After reading this and other things you've written about Friends and class, I have to say...wherever you go to meeting sounds pretty extreme. Most of my experience is with small fairly chill mtgs though. My few visits to a large, stereotypical "college town" meeting sound a little more like what you've described. Maybe this is sort of norm that builds on itself.<br /><br />Tyler HamptonUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00395181787305649806noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7584967099548529614.post-53299047558434385212011-02-28T11:59:19.547-06:002011-02-28T11:59:19.547-06:00You make excellent points. Case in point in my exp...You make excellent points. Case in point in my experience:<br /><br />Once I gave ministry. I don't remember what it was. But a short time later, a man (professor at local college) felt the need to stand and "interpret" my ministry into his own professional language. Which was electrical engineering. I am used to a more intellectual language in our urban university meeting, but when ministry from the Spirit is turned into "lessons from my life (thank you, Martin), something has gone seriously awry.<br /><br />I thank you for your essay.paulanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7584967099548529614.post-67245892158434758802011-02-28T10:15:43.609-06:002011-02-28T10:15:43.609-06:00I have to think that the situation might be better...I have to think that the situation might be better if there was more.... well..., actual <i>ministry</i> taking place--you know, elucidating the gospels, praying over one another, sharing direct spiritual openings etc. If the spoken word part of our worship is dominated by "lessons from my life" then it will surely be rooted in lifestyle and the unexamined biases we all carry.Martin Kelleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06999620933648327663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7584967099548529614.post-35622727763905708942011-02-27T17:11:29.536-06:002011-02-27T17:11:29.536-06:00I had some similar thoughts when visiting an urban...I had some similar thoughts when visiting an urban meeting. Their ministry seemed very alien to me as a rural person.Hysteryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02044678910937934731noreply@blogger.com